Geoff Davies

Interview by Gary Logan, 20 August 1992

Upon the news that The Stranglers were to set up their very own record label, I decided to look further into the world of Independent music. I knew of a Liverpool based independent label called Probe Plus, mainly through my liking of Birkenhead indie band Half Man Half Biscuit. The band enjoyed massive press acclaim and indie chart success, way back in 1986 only to disband at the height of their success. The band has since reformed but is struggling to regain the popularity that they enjoyed six years previously. The fortunes of their record label have also fluctuated and continues only through the dedication of its creator, Geoff Davies. I travelled up to Liverpool to speak to Geoff in his cramped, record strewn office in the city centre.

Gary Logan: So tell me Geoff, how did you get into this business?

Geoff Davies: Well it’s an extension of other things. I started the shop in 1971, just out of an extension of a hobby/obsession. I then started to do some promoting. The first shop that I had was called a ‘head’ shop, weird records that no one had heard the likes of before – all sorts of stuff that wasn’t available anywhere else. That was in the student part of town. In 1981, we started the wholesale and distribution of records. Then within six months of that I had a record out myself.

This was a one man enterprise?

Well the shop was with my missus of the time, Annie, who still has the shop downstairs. We split up in 1986, so she kept the shop and I kept the label. She had been doing the shop anyway, so the natural painless split was just to say you carry on with what you are doing and I’ll carry on with what I am doing. It’s probably not so good for me financially, because it’s good having a till to dip your fingers into! I’ve been on my own financially since 1986 and since 1987 it has been quite a struggle, as things have got worse in the business.

The indie labels seem to be falling fast.

If I had any sense I‘d have packed this thing in a year ago.

You won’t be doing a Tony Wilson and selling the label for millions of pounds?

I would consider any offers (laughs), but I can’t see anyone wanting to buy me out.

Does the label pay for itself?

Well it doesn’t now unfortunately, but it did. The situation you end up with in most indie labels is one band keeping the whole thing going, and that of course for Probe is HMHB. Of all the sixty odd records I’ve done, there is only HMHB and one or two others that have made any money.

You had the Farm on your label early on.

Yeah, I only had one record of theirs in 1985.

And Surreal Estate, who I remember Janice Long played to death.

In fact with Surreal Estate if I hadn’t pressed a third thousand of that, it would have made money. I went and pressed a third thousand, and it died a death and the band split up. The Farm did another record with someone else and then the band moved to London.

You manufacture singles in batches of a 1000 don’t you?

Yes, but you are taking a loss on just getting a thousand records pressed due to the costs of the recording, the cut, the manufacturing of the records etc. It is only when you go into the repeat orders that you drop those initial costs. It’s much cheaper then per record and you can start making money. You also have different formats and have to do a 7”, 12”, cassette and CD. Well to initiate all those things, you are talking about £8-9000. That is on top of the recording costs and it’s a lot of money to get back. Apart from HMHB, the ones that went into the second thousand were Jegsy Dodd, Gone to Earth and the Walking Seeds.

What about the single with HMHB and Margi Clarke, was that a wise choice of single?

Well, I still like the sound of it and if it had received some airplay who knows. It’s just a classic ‘punky’ bash. We needed another record out, but we didn’t want to let any more tracks out from the forthcoming album, so we thought we’d do a cover. The band were already doing it as a cover live. Nigel

suggested doing it as a co-vocal with a girl and suggested Sonia, or the girl who plays Tracey Corkill in Brookside. Sonia proved to be too problematical as she was with Polydor, so that wasn’t on.

Soap stars releasing records seems to be the in thing, with Jason and Kylie doing so well.

The girl from Brookside we soon established couldn’t sing. We knew Margi had been a singer and was up for it and I knew her. She speaks French as well, so she was the one to go for. I think it worked out well actually, I love the guitar sound.

To be honest it isn’t one of my favourite songs.

Either you like the idea of it or you don’t. It was not really serious at all. But nobody played it - they said it was too rough, too hard. But we had producers before they heard it say ’HMHB/Margi Clarke great - send it to us as soon as you get it’. Then as soon as they’d heard it they said it was too raw, too much feedback and all that. It was said that we should have done a radio 1 mix, but we thought we did! We did what we thought was acceptable radio.

Do you still get inundated with demo tapes?

Yeah, I still get tapes sent - I’m just not in a position to do anything with them. It’s just so bad at the moment. Over the last year I’ve been completely on my arse, not taking a wage out or anything. It’s been as bad as it can get.

But it’s a labour of love for you really. Do you like most of the bands on your label?

Practically all.

Would you take on a band if you thought that they would make you lots of money, even if you hated their music or them?

No, probably not. I can’t work with people that I find to be arseholes.

So if Michael Jackson came to you and offered his services?

(Laughs) No he’d get on my fucking nerves would Michael. I turned down Frankie goes to Hollywood for instance. Paul Rutherford used to work in the shop and he said ‘I’ve got a tape of the band, and you’ll hate it, but listen to it…” I did hate it! Pete Burns of Dead or Alive who used to work for me is a good lad and a mate and all that, but he would be such a pain in the arse and so petulant. I knew him too well, I couldn’t work for him. I can’t be dealing with ego sort of bands, or do a record for bands that just want to make it out of Liverpool and that applies to so many Liverpool bands. I’ve done a lot of things that I think have an edge to them, something different. There are about 500 bands playing in Liverpool and most of them are complete and utter dreck. Poppy, mid-Atlantic, with no reflection of the lives of these people…

(The phone rings - HMHB are playing Liverpool Krazy House that evening)

That’s several more for the guest list, friends of friends. It’s always a problem playing locally; it’s one of the reasons that Nigel doesn’t like playing. He’s actually embarrassed for his mates to see him on stage.

HMHB are not your typical band are they?

No they are the most untypical really in many ways.

Do they like touring, or is it a case of you telling them to tour, so people know they are still around?

Yeah! (smiles resignedly)

What is it like managing the band?

Well it would be more difficult if I was a sensible efficient businessman myself, but I can handle any idiosyncrasies of Nigel’s and there’s plenty. I can work around his different football matches and all that. Managing HMHB is very frustrating, especially if you are an ambitious straight businessman, because Nigel won’t tour abroad, he won’t go over water or air…

Ireland?

No he won’t do Ireland. We’ve just turned down £2000 to play a gig in Dublin.

Why was that – did Nigel give a reason?

He just doesn’t like going over on boats. He’s never been on a plane and he’s not into the rock and roll lifestyle, if that exists anymore. He doesn’t drink and has never taken drugs in his life. One or two of the band are more into ‘life on the road’, he just wants to get home so it does restrict you. There are lots of gigs that he won’t do, he doesn’t like playing clubs for instance. They did go to Holland in 1986 and were very successful. I was really surprised. The band were on the verge of being a massive hit in Britain, but weren’t that well known in Holland as they would have been two months later. They played large and small venues.

You seem to do the Mean Fiddler in London a lot.

Yes, we’ve done all the Mean Fiddler group of venues. We do good business for them so they keep booking us. We do try and restrict London, because it is a painful trek there and back in one day.

Saying that they’ve played London about three times in the last nine months or so.

Yes and we’ve had offers from elsewhere which we’ve turned down. The Grand in Clapham for instance. I’m afraid we don’t fancy South London, it’s another hour on the journey. We turned the Grand down for ages and they finally offered £3000, so we took it.

Was that in 1986, when the band was at the height of its popularity?

Oh, no, that was the return thing, about early 1991. There were a thousand plus there.

Do you feel that you have to come to London? The music press never attend the gigs anyway.

No we don’t do gigs in London for that, just for the money. Nigel and the group do like playing once they get on stage, it’s just the waiting around.

Nigel seems to be very self-critical about his talents, saying that he can’t play the guitar properly.

He’s modest about his guitar playing certainly.

With the new album, the guitars sound a lot stronger than previously. It’s probably their best album.

Yeah, I think that. They are all good strong songs, every track I really like. It’s played well, it’s got the best production they’ve had and the cleverest, smartest lyrics.

How well did it do in the charts?

It’s only done about 8 ½ thousand, which for an indie record these days has done ok, but for a HMHB record is not good at all.

What has made the difference since 86, was it the press attention?

Yeah, it’s all that. It’s all fashions. What the Biscuits did is no longer a novelty, because other people have now picked up on it like I, Ludicrous, Sultans of Ping FC’, Carter USM etc. They’ve picked up on this odd, quirky subject matter.

Was it Nigel who decided that the band should split up the first time?

Yes it was Nigel entirely.

What did the rest of the group do when the band split?

Simon was in Jegsy Dodd. Paul and Simon are always rehearsing together. Dave the keyboard player did nothing I think and eventually got a job. Neil went to college and Nigel did absolutely nothing.

How did Nigel survive financially?

Just on the dole. Up until two years ago they were getting regular royalties from me every month. The royalties started to dwindle away and then the costs of ‘Let’s not’ and ‘No Regrets’ and the videos cut into those royalties badly. So that money dried up and the money from the Macintyre album has dried up as well.

Will there be a new album next year?

Well according to Nigel there will be a new album before the end of the year. I know that they have about 6 songs at the moment.

Does Nigel do the lyrics and Nigel and Neil do the music?

Up until the last album, Nigel did all the tunes and the lyrics, but he is so slow that Neil wrote the music for two songs on Macintyre which were ‘Everything’s AOR’ and ‘Hedley Verityesque’.

‘Everything’s AOR’ is my favourite song from the album. It would have made a great single.

Well we had it planned as a single, but the money ran out and I couldn’t risk doing another single because the first two had lost money. I would love to do ’Everything’s AOR’ I think it’s great.

The singles market certainly seems to be in decline. You also have cynical marketing where singles are released with remixes of the same song, or a song with different b sides.

A single should I would say have at least 3 original tracks. After saying that we did that with ‘No regrets’, which I feel a bit guilty about. We did two different versions of the song so not to give any more tracks away, but they were two very different versions. If we’d done three original tracks on that and ‘Lets not’, by the time the album came out it would either be put back to record more new songs, or would come out with few original songs.

Are there any plans for a live album?

Nigel didn’t want a live album out at this stage. We may put some live songs onto a future 12”, but that would have to be when we are in a better financial situation. The money used to record and manufacture the live album could be lost. I can’t just do records like I used to. I just used to do records simply because if I thought it was great I’d do it. I didn’t consider whether it would do well financially, but that changed after 1990.

What about the album covers, who designs them?

It’s normally the one fellow whose name is Steve Hardstaff, who uses the name Jacuzzi. He’s someone who has been doing album covers since the late 60’s. He’s done Led Zeppelin, Fleetwood Mac, nearly all the early Icicle Works ones.

They are very bright.

And cheap because there isn’t many colours on them.

Is there a process that he goes through, does he listen to the song first?

No that’s maybe what proper people do, but Steve’s not interested in the music, he just tries to come up with something bizarre.

Like the ‘Lets not’ cover.

The ‘Lets not’ cover is dead good, it’s your crop circles and all that, Van Gogh and for Nigel, it’s got a golf pin. Nigel’s current obsession is golf and you can hear it in several lyrics on Macintyre.

I like the Macintyre cover as well – The Michael Palin football sketch.

Yeah that was straight forward really, just a photograph taken from my video.

Does that reflect the band’s obsession with Tranmere Rovers?

It’s Nigel and Neil that are fanatical football fans, Neil to a lesser extent. Simon and Paul go to the matches as well, the keyboard player Dave, isn’t interested at all – He’s the big girl of the band!

He’s an art student now isn’t he?

He was then, he’s now journalist with some family magazine in the Wirral.

Has it all been worth it Geoff? Do you wish that you had a secure job in an office somewhere?

No, I have ‘no regrets’ as they say, really. Any mistakes, bad moves etc have all been down to my own fault. It’s been hard work and sometimes it hasn’t. Out of this business I have had now 21 years and to get away with not working properly for that length of time is quite good really.

So there you have it. What Geoff didn’t mention was that in 1991, after the demise of Rough Trade, the indie distribution system fell apart, and Geoff was left virtually broke and nearly reduced to losing his house. It seems a poor reward for someone who has put their life into releasing records with little though for commerciality or making a ‘fast buck’. For Geoff, the music is the thing, not making money and that I suppose is the difference between many independent labels and the major conglomerates. I suspect that ‘Psycho’ records is in good hands, but I wonder if the band would continue with the label if they were faced with the set-backs that Probe has encountered.